What a wonderful world we live in.
CFI: It’s time for science and reason
Hat tip to Pharyngula. The message this video has to convey is important, and so I’ll let it speak for itself.
CFI: It’s time for science and reason
Hat tip to Pharyngula. The message this video has to convey is important, and so I’ll let it speak for itself.
on September 22, 2008 on 1:13 pm
I think they oversimplified it a little. It’s not like Christians still look at the stars and follow magical thinking without use of reason as many imply on the video. Just because those in the video have a different faith (they still believe in what they believe in, in this case science only) doesn’t make faith in God wrong. In fact, they may be very wrong themselves. At least, it seems to me that’s what they imply. Maybe I misinterpreted it.
But to paint it in the terms they use is a little bit misleading, to say the least. Sure, there are some wacko’s (ie that article you linked a few weeks ago) but there are many Christians that embrace science, use science on a daily basis. And I’d say there are just as many Christians in the world that recognize the path we’re currently on is perilously wrong and demands courageous action. That doesn’t have to mean abandoning your faith in God to be bold and make changes whether it be in the area of energy utilization and alternatives, medical research, economical changes or political elections.
on September 22, 2008 on 7:36 pm
My observation, and my primary concern/response to your comment, is that because even moderate Christians have the same basic framework of believe as your more evangelical/fundamental Christians, they tend to identify with each other more and rush to each other’s defense. The crazy public middle school science teacher (and evangelical Christian) here in Ohio who was/is in the process of being fired for, among other things, using an electrical device to (albeit lightly) burn the image of a cross into one student’s arm (“it was just an ‘X’ with one long end!” seems to be the predominant claimed defense)? *He’s not fit to teach children, much less SCIENCE class!* And he clearly falls within the fundamentalist/evangelical “breach”, if you will, of Christianity.
But his support is coming from all over. It’s like some silent dog whistle that only Christians can hear. Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists. . . every flavor, moderate or extreme, in a five-state area seems to be (individually or collectively) coming out in support of this guy. And the default position all these people are taking is that because this guy is a Christian, either he is being wrongfully persecuted or what he did was right (or at least within community standards), and it is just some wacko out there student and his parents causing trouble in the community.
So it isn’t that I think all Christians every day have abandoned science (although many certainly seem to enjoy its benefits while deriding its evidence), it is that it seems to me as if being Christian (or being Muslim, or whatever), makes one more susceptible to abandoning the rational, to abandoning what can be consistently measured and repeated, especially at the urging of one of their own, whether that “one of their own” is in their church or half a continent away. It is the framework that says “That stuff doesn’t matter when you don’t want it to.” that just bothers me to the core.
I’ll open up my personal life a little, as a way of example. My wife is college educated, and is a pretty bright person. But she comes from a (at least on her mother’s side) pretty religiously conservative family. So when her mom comes and they start talking in earnest about a “prophet” my wife’s aunt has been to see recently, you can see the “moderate” parts of my wife’s brain slipping away as they start wondering what kind of calamity this prophet might have been talking about or whatnot. Or when my five-year-old asks why the moon goes around the Earth and why the Earth goes around the Sun and my wife says “God”. I’ll tell you when she said that I cut her off and did my best to explain the basic concepts of gravity to a five year old.
I’m not saying that five year olds need to know every scientific detail of everything, but it is that tendency, that slippage, that communal defensive mechanism that, yes and absolutely, has a propensity to turn modern-day, even moderate, Christians into star-looking magical thinkers.
And the examples of this abound. Our pastor was digging for money this Sunday not just for regular tithing but also two separate special donation requests, and he said to go ahead and give, because God will provide you with the money to fund your commitment. If there is any chance that isn’t true (and there is absolutely no way that is true enough to be proven under consistently measurable and repeatable standards, i.e. nothing more than anecdotes), that is an outright dangerous thing to be leading your flock to. To me, that is just as wacko as nationally prominent religious figures saying Hurricane Katrina was God’s punishment for America’s wicked ways.
I know this has been long, and I know that I’m painting with a pretty wide brush. I know there are reasonable, moderate, science-believing Christians. But my ultimate point is that Christianity, and this goes to its very core, is about following. And when you have a life where your core principles are built around a framework of following, I just see that as ripe for abuse, and ripe for slippage. I understand that we will likely agree to disagree on these points.
on September 22, 2008 on 9:47 pm
Well, I’d have to say we probably agree on more here than one would think. I’m glad to know you live in Ohio, been wondering. Hope you guys can count ballots correctly – notice backwards Mississippi is never accused of not knowing how to count ballots – like Florida. Anyway, I digress.
I have to agree with you on a few levels. One, I think I heard about the guy burning the cross in someone’s arm and told my wife the guy’s crazy. That is absolutely riduculous in many regards. But religiously speaking, the fact that people go running to the sides of idiocy really bothers me because what inevitably happens is that Christians lose credibility and people say something like “I don’t want to even begin to try to know their God.” It’s still people’s choice but we don’t help matters out much. Christians that commit crimes deserve their just punishment.
Secondly, it also bothers me when it comes to what goes on churches. We are all imperfect but when people begin to call themselves more than what they are. I think there are many who call themselves “prophet” for example that are nothing of the sort. I think of prophets as those old guys in the Bible. But prophets today? Far fewer than those who call themselves prophets. Getting into dangerous territory there, I think, by claiming to have the “final word from God.”
Third, speaking of your daughter, that there’s plenty of room to say the moon, earth, gravity, etc. work in “this” way but there’s a God who designed it and set the process in motion. I don’t see a contradiction there (unless of course you have no belief in God).
I do think your “wacko” comparison about tithing and Katrina is a little off. If you believe in God, I think there is something about giving (not to get but to give) and God blessing you in return. But I think it’s wrong to guilt trip people into giving. In fact, most of the talk about tithing in the Bible is Old Testament and Jesus’ teaching is more along gving out of a grateful and cheerful heart.
The teaching about tithing is actually something that often gets under my skin. I do tithe personally but I think that many churches and people teach tithing as a means of gain for the church, church building and pastor and thus promote it. But there are other “tithes” in the Bible that I would say nearly all churches do not teach. Why teach the tithe that brings money to the church but avoid the tithes that don’t?
As far as Katrina goes, religiously speaking, sometimes I wonder if instead of saying, “Why did God allow this to happen?” we should say, “Why doesn’t God allow this to happen more often?” That is, if we truly are sinners and deserve punishment and God’s wrath, etc., then shouldn’t he constantly barrage us with punishing stuff. Instead, it seems that he relents much more often and shows us a pretty good amount of grace.
On the other hand, scientifically speaking, we know from science that there are certain areas that are more prone to cataclysmic events (earthquakes, hurricanes, flooding, etc.) Are we not then somewhat stupid to build on the floor of a bowl surrounded by water? Are we not stupid to build right on a major earthquake fault? I know that in times past we didn’t have that info but we do now and people continue to build where “mother nature” routinely wreaks havoc. God-given common sense is very valuable in life.
Ultimately Christianity is about following Christ and unfortunately people continue to abuse people’s submission and faith. That still doesn’t make God/Christ non-existent and that’s one place where we must make our decision to place/not place our faith.
on September 24, 2008 on 8:08 pm
“That doesn’t have to mean abandoning your faith in God to be bold and make changes whether it be in the area of energy utilization and alternatives, medical research, economical changes or political elections.”
I don’t think that the video went so far as to promote atheism, if that is how you took it. I took it as advocating a secular approach to solving problems, because, and this is especially true when you are dealing with global issues that span both cultures and major religions, taking a secular approach provides a common ground upon which all sides can measure and take stock. It reduces polarity and encourages collaboration. That’s not to say that people cannot or will not differ on what to do regarding evidence presented, but at least it creates a framework that ought to be universal. 1+1=2 no matter what language you use.
I do think that the video may be viewed as being incompatible with the world view of a God that is constantly intervening in large and small ways, that prayer affects physical reality, or that everything that occurs is God’s plan. Once you have gone that far, it’s tough to claim compatibility with secular investigation and problem-solving.
It is yet more difficult to get to common ground with other denominations, other religions, the non-religious and agnostics/atheists. Because God is going to show more favor to His/Her/Their own group, and less to others by the inherent nature of the exclusivity of most major religious systems. Only by coming closer to the overall values and tenets, so would say each religion, will you be able to solve X problem. Ergo, God caused Katrina and only by more religious fate will we convince Him not to allow this to happen again/more frequently, etc. whereas a Muslim would say God caused Katrina and only by bringing the United States closer to the tenets of Islam will we convince him not to allow this to happen again/more frequently, etc.
All the while brave pilots risk their lives to collect as much measurable data about hurricanes as they can as scientists work to filter and analyze this data to see whether it is possible to lessen the impact of hurricanes for those that would otherwise be in its path.
So that’s really what I took from the video. Don’t use the Bible, or the Koran, or other faith-based documents (they really didn’t have to focus as much on “ancient” . . . have you read much of the internal Scientology materials available?) when it comes to focusing on finding solutions to problems.
on October 3, 2008 on 6:25 pm
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